Vince Pitelka on sat 4 sep 04
> Concrete Tub - sure great idea. But is it? Think about this. Why is it
> concrete? Because Soldner wanted a mixer once upon time but maybe couldn't
> afford a stainless steel drum. So the idea dawned that you could use
> concrete. No rust no fuss. Somehow the cheap alternative to using
stainless
> steel has become the best way to mix and the most expensive. What a great
> marketing concept!
We're talking in circles here, Rod. The concrete tub works much better than
a metal tub would work. The concrete surface grabs the clay and encourages
more effective mixing, and yet when the clay reaches just the right
consistency, it separates easily from the tub. Soldner experimented with a
variety of steel tubs, and finally decided on the concrete design, even
though building a reinforced concrete tub it is far more trouble than
fabricating a stainless steel tub.
Basic welding/fabricating skills? If you really think that, then you really
understand the cost and complexity of of the welding and fabricating in such
a project. And as I said, Soldner came up with the design for the best clay
mixer in the world, and he patented it. So, part of what you are paying for
is the cost of all that research and development. That's the way it always
is in industry.
Yes, it is a very expensive piece of equipment. But it is apparent that
Soldner makes a very high quality clay mixer, and that large numbers of
people are happy to pay the price, because they know that there is no other
comparable machine on the market. They understand the superior nature of
this machine.
Like I said, if you really think you can build one cheaper, I challenge you
to do so.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Rod Wuetherick on sat 4 sep 04
When I wrote that piece on the Soldner I wrote 15,000 down and after talking
on the phone to one of our fellow clayarters I repeated the figure. After
hanging up I realized I was quoting the price of a Soldner mixer and
pugmill.
Even so I believe the Soldner mixer up here in Canada for the pro model if
almost $8000.00 and change. So even though my brain shorted out on the
price. The rest of that letter is true. You could build one for much cheaper
than buying one.
Matter of fact if you do a little research you will find if you go to online
places that sell gears and motors, etc. You will suddenly realize that it
really is quite easy to make your own. All you really need is some basic
casting skills and welding fabricating skills. Like I said before I bet you
could higher a welder/fabricator and still save a few thousand dollars. That
is how ridiculously marked up these mixers are. You don't need a $800.00
dollar motor. A mixer runs very slow so a smaller motor with gear reduction
does the job just fine for a very very long time.
Concrete Tub - sure great idea. But is it? Think about this. Why is it
concrete? Because Soldner wanted a mixer once upon time but maybe couldn't
afford a stainless steel drum. So the idea dawned that you could use
concrete. No rust no fuss. Somehow the cheap alternative to using stainless
steel has become the best way to mix and the most expensive. What a great
marketing concept!
I think you must be paying $2000.00 of that price for shipping the damn
thing to the store you bought it from. What's it cost say to ship a 500LB
block of concrete from Vancouver to say Miami for example?
Anyways if your building a studio and your trying to decide what to spend
your money on. Buy yourself a good deairing pugmill before you shell out
$8000.00 for a clay mixer. I get mad when Soldner says in his ad "with my
mixer you don't need a pugmill" and how does his mixer deair? Save your
money and your wrists and get a pug first. You can get yourself a peter
pugger for much less and have a mixer and a pug in one and you won't be
breaking your back unloading it in the process.
Then after that maybe you want a soda kiln first, wood kiln, spray booth,
etc. Basically get everything else you could ever want for your studio
first - then if you still want a soldner....
There is not a soldner owner here that can tell me that by the time they
finish unloading a batch of clay from their mixer that their lower back
isn't killing them. I've unloaded them to many times to be B.S'ed that way.
My back killed me in my 20's and I shudder to think what it would think now.
There is just no way to get the clay out of a soldner mixer other than
digging it out. Because of the rotating concrete drum design there is also
no practical way to engineer a simple way to expedite the removal process.
You just got to bend over and dig.
Just my 102 cents worth,
Rod
dave bogus on sun 5 sep 04
Dear Everyone who has nothing better to do,
I'm glad my little reasearch project has caused all of you to have
something to do and give some sort of meaning to your lives. Nothing better
to do I guess. When I feel that way I go to the bar. If maybe you put all
that energy in using your well connected asses you would have me a free
mixer already. Anyhow I was just steping on clay thinking that it was a lot
less bullshit than funkin with motor's, testing my welding skills, and my
centering skills. I really like to throw my pots off center. But really it
is never a good idea to just make pots, if you want my two cents rod.
Pottery is truly the art for of the weak. Have I upset anyone yet? Good
thats how i feel about this website. What I mean to say is STOP RESPONDING
TO THIS AD UNLESS YOU HAVE A MIXER! At this point i'm not pickey, solder,
bluebird,peter pugger, estrin I don't really give a damn, anything but my
feet or plaster bats where the clay has hard chuncks in it.So please only
respond if you have a MIXER Got it?
Bogus
Rod Wuetherick on sun 5 sep 04
Your right Vince we are talking in circles. My stainless steel Estrin Mixer
seems to do a damn fine job of mixing the clay. You won't argue that will
you? Saying the soldner would mix better is moot if what you are using works
well no?
Secondly and most importantly then I will let this drop - even if you get
the last word (smile).
The height of the soldner mixer is such that when you bend over to remove
clay it is ergonomically difficult if not damn near impossible to bend over
and scoop clay out with both hands. Your standing at a very acute angle.
This being said you will generally rest one hand on the mixer while the
other digs clay out. Which also means you will be favoring a hand. If your
right handed you will be steadying yourself with your left hand while you
dig with your right and vice-versa.
My point here is two fold - one this very exercise of digging clay out with
your hands is absolutely murderous to the joints, tendons, and ligaments of
the hands. If you argue this your preoccupation with the quality of a
Soldner mixer is clouding your own common sense. Secondly because of what I
mentioned above you will generally use one hand to steady yourself and the
other to scoop and dig- one hand is really getting the brunt of this
torture. One could suggest using some sort of "tool" to extract the clay any
of us know from practical experience that the use of a tool for this job
will triple the length of time to extract the clay and probably damage the
mixing drum as well.
So going back to my old steel Estrin mixer. As I said in an earlier email
when I'm done mixing- now read this clearly before you start arguing with me
again;
I can tip the mixing chamber on it's side, lock it into position and then
turn on the mixing paddles and 90% of the clay is dumped out onto a wheeled
cart that I built for this very purpose. What would take 30 minutes or more
on a soldner takes me 30 seconds with absolutely no wear and tear on my
hands digging clay out of a mixer - shall I mention the back again?
When I say back breaking again there is no denying this. If you have back
problems a Soldner is not for you and if you get one you probably will
develop them in the future.
I firmly stand by my opinion that the Soldner mixer is over priced and
poorly designed. There was no thought put into it with regards to clay
extraction only clay mixing. Your better off to buy a Peter Pugger or
something like it than purchasing this massive hunk of concrete.
Rod
Lori Leary on sun 5 sep 04
Goodness, I think someone needs a nap.
dave bogus wrote:
>Dear Everyone who has nothing better to do,
>
>I'm glad my little reasearch project has caused all of you to have
>something to do and give some sort of meaning to your lives. Nothing better
>to do I guess. When I feel that way I go to the bar. If maybe you put all
>that energy in using your well connected asses you would have me a free
>mixer already. Anyhow I was just steping on clay thinking that it was a lot
>less bullshit than funkin with motor's, testing my welding skills, and my
>centering skills. I really like to throw my pots off center. But really it
>is never a good idea to just make pots, if you want my two cents rod.
>Pottery is truly the art for of the weak. Have I upset anyone yet? Good
>thats how i feel about this website. What I mean to say is STOP RESPONDING
>TO THIS AD UNLESS YOU HAVE A MIXER! At this point i'm not pickey, solder,
>bluebird,peter pugger, estrin I don't really give a damn, anything but my
>feet or plaster bats where the clay has hard chuncks in it.So please only
>respond if you have a MIXER Got it?
>Bogus
>
>
>
>
Earl Brunner on sun 5 sep 04
AW, Dave, So is your last name REALLY Bogus? or is that just the stuff you
post to the list? This is a DISCUSSION list, not a place to just advertise
to buy or sell. Everybody is free to add to the discussion, to agree or
disagree. There is somewhere in the neighborhood of 3,000 people on this
list from a wide variety of backgrounds and circumstances. If you are a
little less inflammatory, you'll get along better.
Earl Brunner
Las Vegas, NV
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of dave bogus
Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2004 10:12 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Wanted Soldner Mixer -> When I said 15K I meant 8K
Dear Everyone who has nothing better to do,
I'm glad my little reasearch project has caused all of you to have
something to do and give some sort of meaning to your lives. Nothing better
to do I guess. When I feel that way I go to the bar. If maybe you put all
that energy in using your well connected asses you would have me a free
mixer already. Anyhow I was just steping on clay thinking that it was a lot
less bullshit than funkin with motor's, testing my welding skills, and my
centering skills. I really like to throw my pots off center. But really it
is never a good idea to just make pots, if you want my two cents rod.
Pottery is truly the art for of the weak. Have I upset anyone yet? Good
thats how i feel about this website. What I mean to say is STOP RESPONDING
TO THIS AD UNLESS YOU HAVE A MIXER! At this point i'm not pickey, solder,
bluebird,peter pugger, estrin I don't really give a damn, anything but my
feet or plaster bats where the clay has hard chuncks in it.So please only
respond if you have a MIXER Got it?
Bogus
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Earl Brunner on sun 5 sep 04
I use a Soldner at the art center. I also have rheumatoid arthritis. I only
take "loose cut" clay out of the mixer, I don't dig. I switch hands, I
don't use just one. I turn it off and on to loosen up more clay. Works for
me. I don't have any real problems using it.
Question, do you have to override any safety settings on your mixer to
"dump-run" it? We have a BlueBird mixer (I think it might be similar in
design to the Estrin) at the other art center and I can't run it with the
door open, or am I not understanding how you dump?
Earl Brunner
Las Vegas, NV
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Rod Wuetherick
Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2004 2:33 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Wanted Soldner Mixer -> When I said 15K I meant 8K
Your right Vince we are talking in circles. My stainless steel Estrin Mixer
seems to do a damn fine job of mixing the clay. You won't argue that will
you? Saying the soldner would mix better is moot if what you are using works
well no?
Secondly and most importantly then I will let this drop - even if you get
the last word (smile).
The height of the soldner mixer is such that when you bend over to remove
clay it is ergonomically difficult if not damn near impossible to bend over
and scoop clay out with both hands. Your standing at a very acute angle.
This being said you will generally rest one hand on the mixer while the
other digs clay out. Which also means you will be favoring a hand. If your
right handed you will be steadying yourself with your left hand while you
dig with your right and vice-versa.
My point here is two fold - one this very exercise of digging clay out with
your hands is absolutely murderous to the joints, tendons, and ligaments of
the hands. If you argue this your preoccupation with the quality of a
Soldner mixer is clouding your own common sense. Secondly because of what I
mentioned above you will generally use one hand to steady yourself and the
other to scoop and dig- one hand is really getting the brunt of this
torture.
Rod Wuetherick on sun 5 sep 04
Ummmm my old Estrin doesn't have any safety switch! It's a bad mean ole'
Estrin.
When I dump it I stand to the side and resist all temptation to see if I'm
strong enough to stop the mixing blades with my bare hands.
I think it would be easy to rig up a system where the door is hinged on the
top and only opens enough to let the clay out. I'm very safety conscious
though - it certainly would need modifications if it was to be used in a
group studio.
I think for group studios you can't beat a Peter Pugger and no I don't own
one I just think it's a clever little machine. I use my old Estrin mixer and
a 4.5" Venco deairing pug - If I was to buy again I would seriously consider
a Peter Pugger.
Best,
Rod
Vince Pitelka on sun 5 sep 04
Rod -
Well, each of us develops our own preferences based on what we have access
to. We got rid of a big Estrin mixer when we bought the Soldner. We still
have a smaller Estrin, but we never use it, because they are so dangerous in
an academic situation, and from my own experience, they are awkward to use.
I can unload the Soldner mixer in less than ten minutes. I have not
observed the problem you refer to, where people supposedly lean on the edge
of the mixer with one hand while they remove clay with the other one. We
did elevate our mixer on 4" extensions, and perhaps that helps. That was
simple to do. At any rate, once the clay has reached the appropriate
consistency, it is tumbling in loose chunks on top, and you simply lift out
remove the loose chunks of clay from the top, which is very easy and
involves no "digging" at all. Then you close the lid, turn the mixer on for
a second, open the lid (which shuts off the mixer) and lift out the loose
chunks again, etc. Simple and effective.
Our Estrin NEVER dumped the clay out. When you tilt the hopper, the cay
sits there, and has to be raked out. It is especially difficult removing
the clay that surrounds the blades.
No matter how much you emphasize safety and compound electrical shutoff,
there is always the remote chance that the Estrin might start up while
someone is cleaning it out, and the prospects are indeed horrible. There is
absolutely no such risk with a Soldner. Newer Estrins might have a built-in
electrical shutoff incorporated into a hinged lid, but with the older ones
there is nothing you can do. If you modify the mixer in any way, even to
add safety devices, you void the manufacturers liability and accept all
liability yourself.
A lot of people think very highly of the Estrins. We both might be slightly
exaggerating the good features of the machines we like. You're not going to
convince me, and I'm not going to convince you, but I write all this for the
benefit of other readers. As I see it, the Soldner is very safe, easy to
use, easy to teach. About five years ago, when we made the transition from
the Estrin to the Soldner, even though we still had an Estrin on hand, NO
ONE wanted to use it. They all loved the Soldner right off the bat.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
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