Dayton Grant on wed 28 mar 07
Hi all, Thanx for playing, Ill try to be forthright, honest and civil in
crafting 'my part' of 'our' free, open and public discussions about studio
ceramix, because I realize that this is a public forum and I wouldnt want to
shun, mislead or offend anyone. I feel this forum has the potential to,
through its widespread membership, advance the world studio ceramix
community by leaps and bounds in a short time, if only the most active
participants would (could) be (remain) open to the possibility that there
may room for improvement, and in the case of wheel thrown ceramix there is
no question, the state of the art of wheel thrown ceramix is falling far
short any respectable 'conventional standard' of knowledge and skill, sure,
most 'teachers' could 'ape' through a class for children or begginers and
come out feeling like theyve really 'done' something for the ceramic
community, but lets not pretend that thats where the 'state' of the art
lies, thats where the 'business' of the 'industry' lies, thats where the
'advertising' revenue lies, but for the sincere advancement of the ceramic
arts and sciences, the state of 'our' art lies in the most vigorous, able
and progressive participation, by strong, bright and sincere students. I
beleive that most of these students are being 'shortstopped' and discouraged
by schools and teachers that are 'grossly' unqualified, and are practicing
what is known as the "Peter-Principle", where the 'professional' level
ceramic teachers are not giving credence or even 'access' to any methods
'unknown to them' that may suggest that they themselves are not of the
'highest' caliber, which most are 'not', they dismiss advanced skills as
'tricks' or invent some reason why those skills are 'just not really
necessary' for a professional career in studio ceramics.
So, anyways, the purpose of my involvement in this forum is to 'advance the
state' of 'studio ceramix', not to be your personal warm fuzzy friend, Im
not trying to push our 'advanced' methods on anyone who couldnt possibly
'learn' how to do them either, but I would have appreciated a timely
critique of the demonstration that I offered to the main figures on the
list, Im not directing my dissapointment toward any of the people that
'bought'(thank you 'very' much for your interest and feedback) the video or
any one who I sent it to just because I 'like' ya,(just sharing with
friends,nothing expected in return) I was mainly refferring to the people
that are 'known' professionals and comment frequently on the commercial
endeavors of others, the ones who write articles for magazines and talk
about 'how 'great' so and so's new book is', 'how great 'ITC' (kaolin and
alumina?) is', you can $chill for 'other' people when they 'pay' you or
whatever the 'deal' is but you wouldnt even 'acknowledge' that I gave you
access to something that youve 'never' seen before, that 'you cant do'
yourself, and that would 'improve' the 'entire feild' when it comes into
common practice, you coulda wrote "Oh yeah, I saw the video and it 'sucked',
nothing special", or just 'anything' but you 'shunned' me, or you could have
sent me the goddam video 'back' if you didnt want it to be part of our
discussion, I 'specifically' asked 'openly' for a review from the
'professional' people that I sent it to. I read posts of some people that
were 'sure' that I was using some kind of 'special lubricant' or something,
and they were trying to figure out what it was, silicone, motor oil... that
was 'hilarious', ya just didnt want to beleive that someone had a better way
to handle ordinary clay, I will say once again there is nothing besides clay
(soldate 60) and water, in that video, the active ingredient is 'elbow
grease' and diligent practice of an 'almost lost' method revived and carried
on first by Micheal Frimkess and now myself, which was employed by several
ancient cultures throughout the history of the world including 500bc Greece.
Now, I would like to answer each persons comments on my last post
LOIS:
Hi, Im sorry you feel like my commentary is an 'advertisement', the 'ten
bucks' is for the tape itself that I have to buy and copy from one vcr to
another 'and' shipping, the 'real' price is a steal at fifty dollars.(guess
what, 'you' dont get one) Im sorry you misunderstood but yours is not the
critique I was seeking, thanx anyway
on your second point... Wow, if you didnt 'post' or even 'see' the words
that I was refferring to, then it really doesnt concern you at all, maybe
'you' should try lurking for awhile, although that would deprive us all of
your poigniant ceramic commentary (oh no!) and I havent 'accused' anyone of
any thing but it seems now that 'you' are 'mistakenly' accusing me of
something or other that has apparently offended you personally, furthermore
I wasnt 'asking' for your 'help', I was 'demanding' your 'respect', and to
quote a lesbian that I once propositioned,"I need you like a fish needs a
bicycle", and as far as 'naming names',.... Im not gonna whoop on you
anymore , just go to your room.
STEVE S.:
Im not a 'Troll', Im the foremost wheel thrower in the country, next of
course to Mr. Frimkess, what do 'you' do?
and on the subject of my posts being somewhat "bizzare", there is a 'very'
bizzare post in the archives that is attributed to me which I did not write
, it says a bunch of weird stuff about some elaborate 'ceremony' for asking
a question on the list, I wish someone (a moderator?) could tell me how to
correct the implication that I wrote it because I did not, and I dont like
things being attributed to me that I did not write. Im 'sure' its just a
mistake. Bye the way, one of the best things that I wrote didnt even get
posted and so I sent it several times to be sure that it wasnt a mistake and
it became clear that it was 'deliberately' not posted, go figure.
CARL:
Thanx man, for knowing that I am trying to be sincere and saying so.
Im sorry my website isnt more professional and detailed but Im working on
it, Ive had somewhat limited recources lately and the encouragement of folks
like you is worth a million bucks to a guy like me and sometimes thats all
Ive got, once again, thanx.
VINCE:
I think it was obnoxious of 'you' to not review the video I sent you or send
it back, or something, you were the one who said that I must be 'mistaken'
to say that I was throwing 'leather hard' clay, so I made sure to send you
one 'first', and then 'yesterday' you use the term 'secondary air' as if it
were a common term, where did you get that term from, huh? Do 'you' have a
kiln that was designed to incorporate the dynamic of 'secondary air',(to
quote Dirty Harry)well, 'do' ya punk!? So it seems like you can use my
'terminology' when (you think) Im not around but you dont want to discuss
throwing skills that you may or may not posess in public, and you have the
'nerve' to ask me "If I 'want' to be a 'part' of 'clayart'",why dont I just
turn over 'all' my notes to 'you' and you can take credit for the simple
things I do and just sweep the hard stuff under the rug so you wont have to
learn anything new or admit that youre complacent. I already 'am' a part of
'clayart' and ceramic history as a 'whole', look it up,"professor". I think
youre not being 'honest' and open about your skills and or lack thereof,
have you shown my video to any of your 'students' why or why not? what do
you tell them about it ? do you teach the most efficient means of throwing
now that you have seen it?(for 'years' now) or do you hope that your
students dont even 'ask' about it, what 'do' you teach over there? get back
to me, at your complacent 'leisure'.
HAMBONE:
Hey, well, the 'throwing without water' thing affords a much greater
throwing speed and facility of choreography (shape making) and affords a
much finer extrusion (24" high 3mm thick) because the clay is 'leather hard'
like 'plastilene' modeling clay and its not soggy, its really firm and will
hold any shape that you give it immediately without fans or torches and
since it doesnt contain much moisture I can cut a 24" pot off the wheel and
put it directly into the kiln, upside down, so the bottom dries first (to
avoid cracking) in about ten minutes of candling (one burner of three with
the door open) the bottom is bone dry and the pot is turned over (whether
the rest of the pot is dry or not) and the door of the kiln is closed and a
second burner is lit to candle, ten more minutes, open the door to visually
check that the whole pot is bone dry, 'check',close door turn on third
burner to candle ,five minutes, turn all burners on high fifteen minutes,
open door,wait until the pot is not emitting light about 900*, take out with
gloves or raku tongs,as soon as its cool enough to touch with bare hands dip
upside down in a garbage can full of glaze while still warm (for greater
glaze absorption) put back in kiln, candle with door open ten minutes or
until color of glaze moisture dissappears, close door turn on high, wait
fifty five minutes and turn off at cone 10 or 11 and let cool for at least 6
or 7 hours or it will crack, end of story.Oh and the kiln runs on a 1 inch
pipe with 6 column inches of (about 5 bucks wide open for an hour) natural
gas (the same household line that runs your water heater and your kitchen
stove),and about Mike being imaginary, I just had lunch with him yesterday
at his house, I brought a couple of crazy chicks down there from Berkeley
and we messed up the kitchen ,after he had me and a new apprentice named
'Mojave'(cool dude) cut some angle-iron for a new kiln and move a ton of
clay that he got from Aardvark out of the studio, because he wasnt happy
with the quality of it, and as for him being a 'student' of Voulkos', Mr.
Frimkess has the greatest and most solemn respect for Voulkos and would
never say so himself, but I beleive that he has 'far' surpassed the skill of
his venerated teacher. There is a televsion crew from Paris or somewhere at
his house right now and they dont question 'any' of these unusual methods
and skills. Yeah ,Mr. Frimkess' work sells at Sotheby's and such 'finer'
joints around the world (or so they say). As far as me showing 'my' work,
well, as you may have already gathered, Im not exactly in it for the money
at this point, Its like a Kung Fu Temple, if youre just in it for the
'money' or 'fame' you can leave right now, but Im told there may
'eventually' be a market for my work, aaahahaha.
I acknowledge you Hambone, man, I dont 'trip' like that. I holler back.
STEVE S.:#2
the 'gloves' arent what makes the things thin,(and red clay is 'never'
translucent its just thin enough (2-3mm)to have alot of pinholes in it, but
thinly thrown porcelain 'is' translucent if you put a candle or a lightbulb
or something in it) its the 'metal ribs' that make that kind of throwing
possible, the gloves are for throwing really large (over 2or3 feet) peices
with #30 grit clay, because when you use anything bigger than #60 sand with
hard clay it will wipe the skin right off of your hands like a #30 grit belt
sander, you would use 'throwing sticks', 'stones' and 'metal ribs' but if
you incidentally and repeatedly touch the moving clay with you bare knuckles
it would get pretty bad after awhile , hence the gloves, and Mr. Frimkess
'almost never' puts cartoon-characters on his pots (the 'exceptions' that I
know of are Uncle Sam and The Mad Hatter),he prefers 'portraiture' of real
people,(Billie Holiday, Miles, Bird, Diz, like that) when you see the
beautifully contextual cartoon-characters and iconic figures so ironically
placed and skillfully rendered, they are the work of the great Mrs.Magdalena
Frimkess (formerly of 'Venezuela',i think) , who's classically modern sense
of narrative and motif is among the best, period.
I dont think the other responses need to be answered , Im not a 'mortgage
spammer', or a 'phishing scheme', just a dedicated potter who wants the
feild to be respected.
Thanx for playing along,
BrotherEarth
_________________________________________________________________
i'm making a difference. Make every IM count for the cause of your choice.
Join Now.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0080000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=hmtagline
Lois Ruben Aronow on wed 28 mar 07
I know we're not allowed to make personal attacks, but please...you've just
handed me a silver platter.
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Dayton Grant
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 8:13 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Just wanted to see if this thing was still 'on'...
Hi all, Thanx for playing, Ill try to be forthright, honest and civil in
crafting 'my part' of 'our' free, open and public discussions about studio
ceramix, because I realize that this is a public forum and I wouldnt want to
shun, mislead or offend anyone. I feel this forum has the potential to,
through its widespread membership, advance the world studio ceramix
community by leaps and bounds in a short time, if only the most active
participants would (could) be (remain) open to the possibility that there
may room for improvement, and in the case of wheel thrown ceramix there is
no question, the state of the art of wheel thrown ceramix is falling far
short any respectable 'conventional standard' of knowledge and skill, sure,
most 'teachers' could 'ape' through a class for children or begginers and
come out feeling like theyve really 'done' something for the ceramic
community, but lets not pretend that thats where the 'state' of the art
lies, thats where the 'business' of the 'industry' lies, thats where the
'advertising' revenue lies, but for the sincere advancement of the ceramic
arts and sciences, the state of 'our' art lies in the most vigorous, able
and progressive participation, by strong, bright and sincere students. I
beleive that most of these students are being 'shortstopped' and discouraged
by schools and teachers that are 'grossly' unqualified, and are practicing
what is known as the "Peter-Principle", where the 'professional' level
ceramic teachers are not giving credence or even 'access' to any methods
'unknown to them' that may suggest that they themselves are not of the
'highest' caliber, which most are 'not', they dismiss advanced skills as
'tricks' or invent some reason why those skills are 'just not really
necessary' for a professional career in studio ceramics.
So, anyways, the purpose of my involvement in this forum is to 'advance the
state' of 'studio ceramix', not to be your personal warm fuzzy friend, Im
not trying to push our 'advanced' methods on anyone who couldnt possibly
'learn' how to do them either, but I would have appreciated a timely
critique of the demonstration that I offered to the main figures on the
list, Im not directing my dissapointment toward any of the people that
'bought'(thank you 'very' much for your interest and feedback) the video or
any one who I sent it to just because I 'like' ya,(just sharing with
friends,nothing expected in return) I was mainly refferring to the people
that are 'known' professionals and comment frequently on the commercial
endeavors of others, the ones who write articles for magazines and talk
about 'how 'great' so and so's new book is', 'how great 'ITC' (kaolin and
alumina?) is', you can $chill for 'other' people when they 'pay' you or
whatever the 'deal' is but you wouldnt even 'acknowledge' that I gave you
access to something that youve 'never' seen before, that 'you cant do'
yourself, and that would 'improve' the 'entire feild' when it comes into
common practice, you coulda wrote "Oh yeah, I saw the video and it 'sucked',
nothing special", or just 'anything' but you 'shunned' me, or you could have
sent me the goddam video 'back' if you didnt want it to be part of our
discussion, I 'specifically' asked 'openly' for a review from the
'professional' people that I sent it to. I read posts of some people that
were 'sure' that I was using some kind of 'special lubricant' or something,
and they were trying to figure out what it was, silicone, motor oil... that
was 'hilarious', ya just didnt want to beleive that someone had a better way
to handle ordinary clay, I will say once again there is nothing besides clay
(soldate 60) and water, in that video, the active ingredient is 'elbow
grease' and diligent practice of an 'almost lost' method revived and carried
on first by Micheal Frimkess and now myself, which was employed by several
ancient cultures throughout the history of the world including 500bc Greece.
Now, I would like to answer each persons comments on my last post
LOIS:
Hi, Im sorry you feel like my commentary is an 'advertisement', the 'ten
bucks' is for the tape itself that I have to buy and copy from one vcr to
another 'and' shipping, the 'real' price is a steal at fifty dollars.(guess
what, 'you' dont get one) Im sorry you misunderstood but yours is not the
critique I was seeking, thanx anyway on your second point... Wow, if you
didnt 'post' or even 'see' the words that I was refferring to, then it
really doesnt concern you at all, maybe 'you' should try lurking for awhile,
although that would deprive us all of your poigniant ceramic commentary (oh
no!) and I havent 'accused' anyone of any thing but it seems now that 'you'
are 'mistakenly' accusing me of something or other that has apparently
offended you personally, furthermore I wasnt 'asking' for your 'help', I was
'demanding' your 'respect', and to quote a lesbian that I once
propositioned,"I need you like a fish needs a bicycle", and as far as
'naming names',.... Im not gonna whoop on you anymore , just go to your
room.
STEVE S.:
Im not a 'Troll', Im the foremost wheel thrower in the country, next of
course to Mr. Frimkess, what do 'you' do?
and on the subject of my posts being somewhat "bizzare", there is a 'very'
bizzare post in the archives that is attributed to me which I did not write
, it says a bunch of weird stuff about some elaborate 'ceremony' for asking
a question on the list, I wish someone (a moderator?) could tell me how to
correct the implication that I wrote it because I did not, and I dont like
things being attributed to me that I did not write. Im 'sure' its just a
mistake. Bye the way, one of the best things that I wrote didnt even get
posted and so I sent it several times to be sure that it wasnt a mistake and
it became clear that it was 'deliberately' not posted, go figure.
CARL:
Thanx man, for knowing that I am trying to be sincere and saying so.
Im sorry my website isnt more professional and detailed but Im working on
it, Ive had somewhat limited recources lately and the encouragement of folks
like you is worth a million bucks to a guy like me and sometimes thats all
Ive got, once again, thanx.
VINCE:
I think it was obnoxious of 'you' to not review the video I sent you or send
it back, or something, you were the one who said that I must be 'mistaken'
to say that I was throwing 'leather hard' clay, so I made sure to send you
one 'first', and then 'yesterday' you use the term 'secondary air' as if it
were a common term, where did you get that term from, huh? Do 'you' have a
kiln that was designed to incorporate the dynamic of 'secondary air',(to
quote Dirty Harry)well, 'do' ya punk!? So it seems like you can use my
'terminology' when (you think) Im not around but you dont want to discuss
throwing skills that you may or may not posess in public, and you have the
'nerve' to ask me "If I 'want' to be a 'part' of 'clayart'",why dont I just
turn over 'all' my notes to 'you' and you can take credit for the simple
things I do and just sweep the hard stuff under the rug so you wont have to
learn anything new or admit that youre complacent. I already 'am' a part of
'clayart' and ceramic history as a 'whole', look it up,"professor". I think
youre not being 'honest' and open about your skills and or lack thereof,
have you shown my video to any of your 'students' why or why not? what do
you tell them about it ? do you teach the most efficient means of throwing
now that you have seen it?(for 'years' now) or do you hope that your
students dont even 'ask' about it, what 'do' you teach over there? get back
to me, at your complacent 'leisure'.
HAMBONE:
Hey, well, the 'throwing without water' thing affords a much greater
throwing speed and facility of choreography (shape making) and affords a
much finer extrusion (24" high 3mm thick) because the clay is 'leather hard'
like 'plastilene' modeling clay and its not soggy, its really firm and will
hold any shape that you give it immediately without fans or torches and
since it doesnt contain much moisture I can cut a 24" pot off the wheel and
put it directly into the kiln, upside down, so the bottom dries first (to
avoid cracking) in about ten minutes of candling (one burner of three with
the door open) the bottom is bone dry and the pot is turned over (whether
the rest of the pot is dry or not) and the door of the kiln is closed and a
second burner is lit to candle, ten more minutes, open the door to visually
check that the whole pot is bone dry, 'check',close door turn on third
burner to candle ,five minutes, turn all burners on high fifteen minutes,
open door,wait until the pot is not emitting light about 900*, take out with
gloves or raku tongs,as soon as its cool enough to touch with bare hands dip
upside down in a garbage can full of glaze while still warm (for greater
glaze absorption) put back in kiln, candle with door open ten minutes or
until color of glaze moisture dissappears, close door turn on high, wait
fifty five minutes and turn off at cone 10 or 11 and let cool for at least 6
or 7 hours or it will crack, end of story.Oh and the kiln runs on a 1 inch
pipe with 6 column inches of (about 5 bucks wide open for an hour) natural
gas (the same household line that runs your water heater and your kitchen
stove),and about Mike being imaginary, I just had lunch with him yesterday
at his house, I brought a couple of crazy chicks down there from Berkeley
and we messed up the kitchen ,after he had me and a new apprentice named
'Mojave'(cool dude) cut some angle-iron for a new kiln and move a ton of
clay that he got from Aardvark out of the studio, because he wasnt happy
with the quality of it, and as for him being a 'student' of Voulkos', Mr.
Frimkess has the greatest and most solemn respect for Voulkos and would
never say so himself, but I beleive that he has 'far' surpassed the skill of
his venerated teacher. There is a televsion crew from Paris or somewhere at
his house right now and they dont question 'any' of these unusual methods
and skills. Yeah ,Mr. Frimkess' work sells at Sotheby's and such 'finer'
joints around the world (or so they say). As far as me showing 'my' work,
well, as you may have already gathered, Im not exactly in it for the money
at this point, Its like a Kung Fu Temple, if youre just in it for the
'money' or 'fame' you can leave right now, but Im told there may
'eventually' be a market for my work, aaahahaha.
I acknowledge you Hambone, man, I dont 'trip' like that. I holler back.
STEVE S.:#2
the 'gloves' arent what makes the things thin,(and red clay is 'never'
translucent its just thin enough (2-3mm)to have alot of pinholes in it, but
thinly thrown porcelain 'is' translucent if you put a candle or a lightbulb
or something in it) its the 'metal ribs' that make that kind of throwing
possible, the gloves are for throwing really large (over 2or3 feet) peices
with #30 grit clay, because when you use anything bigger than #60 sand with
hard clay it will wipe the skin right off of your hands like a #30 grit belt
sander, you would use 'throwing sticks', 'stones' and 'metal ribs' but if
you incidentally and repeatedly touch the moving clay with you bare knuckles
it would get pretty bad after awhile , hence the gloves, and Mr. Frimkess
'almost never' puts cartoon-characters on his pots (the 'exceptions' that I
know of are Uncle Sam and The Mad Hatter),he prefers 'portraiture' of real
people,(Billie Holiday, Miles, Bird, Diz, like that) when you see the
beautifully contextual cartoon-characters and iconic figures so ironically
placed and skillfully rendered, they are the work of the great Mrs.Magdalena
Frimkess (formerly of 'Venezuela',i think) , who's classically modern sense
of narrative and motif is among the best, period.
I dont think the other responses need to be answered , Im not a 'mortgage
spammer', or a 'phishing scheme', just a dedicated potter who wants the
feild to be respected.
Thanx for playing along,
BrotherEarth
_________________________________________________________________
i'm making a difference. Make every IM count for the cause of your choice.
Join Now.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0080000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://im.
live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=hmtagline
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